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Independence

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Postby KenH » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:19 pm

So what's it really all about, then? As someone who is well and truly on the fence about it at the moment, I would appreciate it if someone can shed some true, unbiased facts on the matter for me.

It seems like a matter of political faith (sort of like Jesus) - either you 'believe' and 'get it', or you don't. But all I hear is agenda-driven propaganda from both sides. We'll get to vote next year, so I'd like to get properly clued up in good time before all the poo mist starts flying. 

I'm not trying to light the blue touchpaper and set off a flame war here, so calm, reasoned, rational responses only please, if that's not too naive and hopeful.

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Postby Guest » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:44 pm

Will not happen imho however I,m not a scot but I can see   many a Scots point of view and my enquiries say there's more Scots I know say stay within UK than out.I,m 50/50 but then I,m anti EU but pro common market.
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Postby triple3 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:48 pm

What really annoys me is the people that say "oh ye canna do that" "you'll no survive" , "how will you cope without us"? just scaremongering in my opinion, i see no reason why scotland can't stand on its own but thats just my opinion, i think the uk is londoncentic , broken , and the eu's whipping boy, whether scotland would be better off out of it im not sure but im willing to give it a go. would scotland be worse off on its own? i doubt it.
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Postby davebreeze » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:06 am

triple3 wrote:What really annoys me is the people that say "oh ye canna do that" "you'll no survive" , "how will you cope without us"? just scaremongering in my opinion, i see no reason why scotland can't stand on its own but thats just my opinion, i think the uk is londoncentic , broken , and the eu's whipping boy, whether scotland would be better off out of it im not sure but im willing to give it a go. would scotland be worse off on its own? i doubt it.


I'm with triple3, willing to give it a go. There are plenty of small countries out there doing just fine, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Finland are all about the same population as Scotland. I've yet to hear any decent arguments against independence, but a lot of scaremongering and 'fear of the unknown'. We have a strong identity known throughout the world which is always going to stand us in good stead for tourism and industry.
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Postby KenH » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:18 am

I think I have a typically Scottish distrust of politicians and their motives - I've met a few and wouldn't let them in the door to use the toilet. And that's what bothers me most - who will be in charge ? The same old crowd but under a different banner ? Who stands to gain the most ? Hmmm. President Salmond ?

If we were going to have a complete and total overhaul of the political system to something like, say, the Swiss system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland), I'd be all for it.
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Postby Brian UK » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:42 pm

Is the Scottish distrust of politicians any different to the distrust the rest of us have. Or are Scottish politicians even worse?Shocked
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Postby JamesS » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:00 pm

I would fear for the worst as we have a lot of nutty, agenda,  twisted dogma driven polaticians. They have already introduced some balmy laws,  and I would expect them to really want to stamp their mark on us.  Enjoy your semi freedom now before the lunatics possibly take over.
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Postby Brian UK » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:12 pm

The problem with anything like this is that it is rarely done for altruistic reasons.
However, though I have Scottish ancestry, it's nothing to do with me as I don't live there.

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Postby iandunmore » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:46 pm

davebreeze wrote:
triple3 wrote:What really annoys me is the people that say "oh ye canna do that" "you'll no survive" , "how will you cope without us"? just scaremongering in my opinion, i see no reason why scotland can't stand on its own but thats just my opinion, i think the uk is londoncentic , broken , and the eu's whipping boy, whether scotland would be better off out of it im not sure but im willing to give it a go. would scotland be worse off on its own? i doubt it.


I'm with triple3, willing to give it a go. There are plenty of small countries out there doing just fine, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Finland are all about the same population as Scotland. I've yet to hear any decent arguments against independence, but a lot of scaremongering and 'fear of the unknown'. We have a strong identity known throughout the world which is always going to stand us in good stead for tourism and industry.

Totally agree.
Though as I am not Scottish my opinion is only of minor importance.

An independant Scotland would dp serious to terminal damge to neu arbeite as well.
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Postby Guest » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:51 pm

Funny to hear the argument that Scotland would have to negotiate EU membership. Surely England would as well after break up?
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Postby Maxrevs » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:42 pm

For Scotland to be independant, would it reqire a change of the UK constitution?
If so then everyone in the UK should have a vote. That would be interesting!!
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Postby Mad Farquhar » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:28 am

I note that yesterday the Scottish legal profession were feeling hard done by in this economic climate - awh dum dums.
This independence malarky will surely fillip these parasites cash intake?
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Postby Guest » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:07 pm

Brian UK wrote:

Is the Scottish distrust of politicians any different to the distrust the rest of us have. Or are Scottish politicians even worse?Shocked

NOnononononnononononyes or is it yes nonononononononon.I'm no sure.
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Postby iandunmore » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:32 pm

Maxrevs wrote: For Scotland to be independant, would it reqire a change of the UK constitution?
If so then everyone in the UK should have a vote. That would be interesting!!

This has been done to death on another forum.
If Scotland votes for independance and Cameron honours the vote then it can be put before Parliament.
If they then turned it down then that would be interesting.
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Postby Guest » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:49 pm

Thought I had posted this already .... ho hum.
 

Anyway my point was if it removes the nuclear arsenal from the Clyde and stops us invading other countries I would vote yes a hundred times over.
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Postby jim mac » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:08 pm

you know - i just don't care anymore, i really just don't care.  i have given up on the Tories after over 40 years of voting for them (yes i am that rarity in Scotland) and dont see me voting for any of the others. 

I suppose i have dis-enfranchised myself.  i was never apathetic towards politics, but the last couple of years with the expenses scandals, Liberals lying to students during the election, government stuffing everyone except the fat cat's - I just dont care

i have finally accepted that no matter who is in power my vote doesn't count as they wont do anything to represent me anyway.

Independent Scotland - I dont care






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Postby iandunmore » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:12 pm

Russell wrote:Thought I had posted this already .... ho hum.
 

Anyway my point was if it removes the nuclear arsenal from the Clyde and stops us invading other countries I would vote yes a hundred times over.

Agree with all of that. the last 15 years of wars have been a disaster.
The world is now a much more dangerous place.
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Postby jim mac » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:13 pm

i read yesterday, think it was BBC website,  that the UK has only had one year of peace since 1945- we have been involved in one action or another ever since - we were described as a 'warrior nation' that needed to fight


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Postby iandunmore » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:21 pm

I know that when I was in the army 1968 was the only year last century that a British soldier wasn't killed in action.
Perhaps Health and Safety needs to investigate??
When you say we are you describing Scotland, England or the UK in general?
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Postby KenH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:27 pm

jim mac wrote:you know - i just don't care anymore, i really just don't care.  i have given up on the Tories after over 40 years of voting for them (yes i am that rarity in Scotland) and dont see me voting for any of the others.






And that may well be at the root of the current situation. Over the UK as a whole, much of the electorate has become increasingly alienated from politics. A general distaste for the Conservatives after Maggie and then sleaze under John Major (apart from much else), disappointment with the New Labour experiment - Iraq, Afghanistan, spin, deceit, expenses, Gordon Brown, RBS etc, and the wishy-washy indecisiveness from the Liberals left no legitimate alternative for most of the country. UKIP ? (too small and extreme to make a dent), BNP (FFS !!!) ? In Scotland, we had a more or less realistic fourth choice - the SNP, so they were voted for by a significant % of the electorate simply because they weren't one of the other three. So, they get in. Trouble is, although they have achieved much that is laudable, SNP are essentially a single-issue Party, namely Independence. So they claim a mandate and start pushing for it, even though the majority of the Scottish electorate aren't too bothered or see a real, pressing need for it.

Is that about it? Am I missing something?






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Postby Guest » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:19 pm

President Salmond ,mark my words if independence happens.Will all the road signs be multi lingual. Will there be a border control due to some eu directive about free unrestricted movement through the eu that the uk have some veto on, will i have to get a scottish passport to visit Carlisle to shop at morrisons,will i have to drive at 60mph on the M74 until i get to gretna and the M6. O the list is endless . ralph2013-02-05 20:28:22
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Postby Maxrevs » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:47 pm

Who in England would want Faslane & Coulport moved South?
Just charge a huge rent to pay for the bi-lingual signs and a few other strange schemes.
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Postby davebreeze » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:44 pm

borderer wrote:Funny to hear the argument that Scotland would have to negotiate EU membership. Surely England would as well after break up?


Technically it would be two new countries so the UK/England would be in the same boat as the new Scotland, although no doubt much negotiation would take place. It was mentioned on Newsnight a few days ago that the UK would no longer be entitled to it's place on the UN Security Council, there would be a queue of countries waiting to argue that point.

I'd be happy to end up a small insignificant country which didn't spend a fortune on defence and didn't feel the need to get involved in everybody's conflicts.
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Postby Guest » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:14 am

Nothing to do with Scottish independence but davebreeze Whats very pleasing about cast iron downpipes? could it be the cash from the scrap dealer when you finaly get them out of the back of the estate car after driving through the city centre with the car on it's bump stops and getting there without getting stopped by the police .
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Postby jim mac » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:24 pm

Ian,  when i said 'we' the article referred to the UK.  I have always considered myself to be a British citizen who just happened to be born, live and work in Scotland all of my life - so far
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Postby iandunmore » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:42 pm

Fine, I was really commenting on the large % of Scots (and Irish) in the British army.
I consider myself a European born in England.
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Postby Brian UK » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:53 am

Maxrevs wrote:
For Scotland to be independant, would it reqire a change of the UK constitution?
If so then everyone in the UK should have a vote. That would be interesting!!

It would mean that the Act of Union would have to be revoked. Doubt that would require any voting by joe public.
Might require a new flag though, the Union Flag would no longer be correct.
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Postby GuzziEagles » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:57 pm

ralph wrote: Will there be a border control due to some eu directive about free unrestricted movement through the eu that the uk have some veto on, will i have to get a scottish passport to visit Carlisle.


 
I can picture the headlines, "Hadrian's wall to be rebuilt." LOLLOL
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Postby iandunmore » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Brian UK wrote:
Maxrevs wrote: For Scotland to be independant, would it reqire a change of the UK constitution?
If so then everyone in the UK should have a vote. That would be interesting!!

It would mean that the Act of Union would have to be revoked. Doubt that would require any voting by joe public.

Might require a new flag though, the Union Flag would no longer be correct.

So that's Salmons game.
He secretly owns a flag making business.
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Postby jim mac » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:34 pm

i sat beside him on a flight to london a few years back when he was a lowly MP at Westminster - was actually a nice guy, happy to chat.  We didnt get into politics and he was pleasant enough company.

still not voting for any of them though
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